I’m not “bashing” “the Other.” I’m saying that “the Other” isn’t really “the Other” at all, at least in any fundamental sense, despite their wanting to pretend to be “the Other.” I’m saying that we Jews are really all in the same mess, and that the divisions many of the Orthodox foster between themselves and the non-Orthodox are absurd and insupportable, aside from their being ultimately self-destructive.

My point was that everybody---Orthodox and non-Orthodox---play games with “the law.” “The law” is an ambiguous and self-inconsistent mish-mash, much of which is furthermore too inconvenient to be practiced today. So Jews of all stripes deal with this in their own way.

The Orthodox are no different, with their endless hair-splitting, deferring to the rabbinical establishment, and rationalizations for why the laws don’t apply here or why they can’t be followed there. It’s all the same, and this holier-than-thou attitude among some of the Orthodox that they alone are the only “real” Jews because they alone follow the laws as written is a sham and a farce. They’re not fooling anyone, and they do not have a monopoly on what it means to be Jewish.

My point is not that the Orthodox shouldn’t practice Judaism as they wish. That’s their right, and it brings diversity to Judaism. My only point, again and again, which you and they seem to be unable to see, is that the games they play with “the law” are just as fundamentally arbitrary as anything done by the Conservative movement, for example.

For instance, the Conservative movement believes that kashrut means more than just a static list of food classifications, that it requires adherence to ethics in how food is made and how the food-makers are treated. Heksher tzedek is their attempt to fight back after the Orthodox brought the heinous Iowa Agriprocessors debacle on our heads. Meanwhile it was the Orthodox establishment, following their arbitrary understanding of “the law,” who were standing up for the Agriprocessors. Hypocrites. Who says the Orthodox were truer to “the law” than the Conservatives?

The Orthodox just have found ways of convincing themselves that the games they play with “the law” and the rationalizations they use are superior to those used by other Jews. Well, they can believe whatever they want. That’s their right, too. But it ain’t the truth, however you want to slice it. And they’re still hypocrites for accusing other Jews of playing around with “the law.”

That’s the argument, take it or leave it. But this is done. By all means, have the last word, though. I won’t stop you.

I think my work is done here.

What I am saying is that the sinat hinam must stop. The Orthodox must stop using the “reformim” as bogeyman to frighten their children to stay in line. They must learn to be secure enough in their own identity that they don’t feel the need to attack and cast judgments upon the non-Orthodox. They must stop treating others Jews as being inferior. They need to demonstrate the kind of love and respect for their fellow Jews that is central to Jewish teaching. They must learn that diversity breeds strength, resilience, and adaptability, and that rooting for the demise of other branches of Judaism is foolhardy in the extreme. And, above all, they must learn some humility. Full stop.

That’s enough of that. This conversation has run its course. Back to work.

The funny thing is that the most important things I’ve taken from the Rambam often seem completely opposed to what has been taken by most of the Orthodox I’ve personally encountered or whose words I’ve read. You know how many Orthodox I’ve met who insist that the world is actually, literally 6,000 years old? Or even those who accept it’s 13.78 billion years old, but insist that evolution is false? Here’s what the Rambam said about science:

“All this is part of the science and astonomy and mathematics about which many books have been composed by Greek sages… But since all these rules have been established by sound and clear proofs, free from any flaw and irrefutable, we need not be concerned about the identity of these authors, whether they were Hebrew prophets or Gentile sages… we rely upon the author who has discovered them only because of his demonstrated proofs and verified reasoning.”

The Rambam also wrote that Nature was G-d’s second book, and thus to deny the lessons of Nature was to commit blasphemy. And yet you have travesties committed by the leaders of Orthodox movements like what befell Natan Slifkin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natan_Slifkin#Controversy

Maimonides emphasize the importance of work and contributing to society, having spent his years working as a doctor, and yet the haredim of Israel don’t hold jobs and don’t serve in the armed forces.

Maimonides, like others before him and the Tanakh itself, demands that Jews love other Jews (with all the sinat hinam brewing both in Israel and America, especially between the branches, let’s not even go there), but also to love the convert. Yet the converts I have known or heard have spoken of deep distrust and suspicion for many years from their supposedly fellow Jews. There is no love without trust.

Maimonides broke ground with the controversial idea that G-d was not like a human being, that G-d was formless and intangible and, indeed, could only be comprehended through those features that he did not possess. He also propagated the view that upholding the principles of Judaism was an end to itself, that it carried people into a state of sacred holiness, and that none of it was about avoiding punishment from G-d. But the Orthodox individuals I have known acknowledge this only in passing, while deep down treating G-d like a humanoid imaginary friend who gets “angry” and casts “judgment” on people when they misbehave or violate the laws.

The fact that Shlomo Carlebach is still spoken of with great honor in many Orthodox communities is perhaps all that one needs to recognize the rank hypocrisy going on, the placing of religion ahead of morality and ethics. Tzedek tzedek tirdof is perhaps the most important principle in all of Deuteronomy.

The most important lesson I learned from Judaism was that some principles are simply more important and holy than others, and that one must view the lesser laws through the light of the greater ones. And the highest laws that I’ve learned from Judaism make me believe that many Orthodox are often living in a state of hypocrisy, of focussing on the smallest laws and avoiding the bigger morals.

So when any member of the Orthodox branches insists on casting judgments on the Jewishness of the non-Orthodox, I am justifiably angered and disappointed. We are, all of us, imperfect Jews. And there are among all the branches and movements of Judaism plenty of individuals who are trying to be the best Jews they can be, according to their understanding of what it means to be a good Jew, and understanding that ultimately rests not with any rabbi or the Shulkhan Arukh but with G-d, whose mind, according to Maimonides, was unknowable to mortal human beings. I have known even Reform rabbis who know the holy texts backwards and forwards, inside and out, better than most of the Orthodox; their beliefs come not out of ignorance, but out the struggle that is written into the very name Yisra-El.

At least the other, non-Orthodox movements are honest and humble about this struggle, about reconciling Judaism with the real world and rationalizing when they have to, and don’t act like they’re superior to other Jews because they haven’t “watered anything down.” Yeah right. Call it splitting hairs, or parsing words, or interpreting in context, but at the end of the day, it’s all rationalization. It’s all about finding excuses not to obey the laws that would be too inconvenient today. We all do it, so let’s just be honest.

Clearly you have no interest in what real Orthodox Jews do or have to say about Judaism.  Pick up a Rambam, learn the laws of dealing with pagans, and then we can talk.  Suffice it to say, Judaism was constructed in a society where Jews had to live with, and work with, real idolators and pagans, including syncretistic, Hellenistic Jews, and managed to do so successfully.

Audio lessons: http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/585887/jewish/Laws-of-Idolatry.htm

Book text: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker/MadaAkum.html (in English).

Learn the laws, understand that Orthodoxy is not Heterodoxy, but a living, functioning Judaism.  Until then, you have little standing to vituperate.

I’m pretty certain that nobody can prove descent from Amalek.  The wars against Amalek and Canaanites were just that: they had to be declared wars, declared by a king (you see a Jewish king around here?) and ratified by the Sanhedrin and the local prophet.  You see any of those around, I got a good psychiatrist to recommend.  If you, a private individual, try killing such a person, you’d be liable for murder under Jewish law as much as under US law.  You might be able to get off with an insanity defense, because claiming “The Bible told me to do it” is pretty insane.  The Bible is not the totality of Torah.

All of this is laid out quite systematically in Maimonides Code, which is very closely derived from the Talmud. But you’d rather kvetch than learn.  I get that, it can be deceptively satisfying.

Nobody “literally” obeys the laws, as I said to Mr. Pressman, we are not fundamentalist Christians who read the Bible literally.  But yes, I do obey the laws on idolatry.  17 years ago, at Pennsic XXI, the national convention of the Society for Creative Anachronism, someone was doing a pagan wedding in a nearby encampment.  They asked to borrow some honey.  I thought about it, and realized that I cannot do so, because of these laws that you claim we take “figuratively.”

So now you can say you’ve met (or at least corresponded with) someone who takes these laws seriously.

“"With a heavy heart we will soon say kaddish on the Reform and Conservative Movements,” said Lamm, head of the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary, in an interview with The Jerusalem Post.”

And you left out the final quote, which sheds light on the fact that when R. Lamm says “we have to find ways of working together,” he’s not just referring to the various strands of Orthodoxy, but to all parts of Judaism:

“He supports outreach to Reform and Conservative Jews, “but not by watering down what we believe and not by demonizing them either.” “

It’s a shame that you, Ben Harris, have chosen to portray the words of a well-respected and open-minded Rabbi in your own light to suit your own purposes.  For shame.

And am I not to fear murdering “false prophets”? And for heaven’s sake, what do you do if you happen to meet a guy who happens to be able to prove thay his ancestors were one of the Canaanite tribes, or, gasp, the Amelekites?

You show me one guy who literally obeys these laws. Say that you are interpreting these rules “in context”, or “figuratively”, or whatever rationalization you choose. But don’t try to pretend that you’re not rationalizing. Please. You’re not fooling anybody.

Amazing!  Somebody who actually acknowledges this!  Now, if only more Orthodox would, they would perhaps return to Rambam’s Hilchot Avodah Zarah and learn it as practical law.

I hang out with science-fiction fans, among whom are numerous neopagans (we follow the Old Religion, which was invented by Gerald Gardner in 1944).  About 18 years ago, a friend wrote a piece in the newsletter of the Jewish Science Fiction Society noting this trend, and calling for people to learn the laws of dealing with idolators.

Now, one has to understand a lot of these people are actually monotheists as well.  Hinduism, for instance, worships idols, but the idols all represent aspects of the One God.  Buddhists, well, the Zenny ones people run into in the US are pretty much not god-centered, but many versions in Asia really are polytheistic.  Goddess-worshipers, as well, are often monotheistic.

But yes, the laws are still operative, nobody takes them to be “figurative” - the problem is lack of awareness of the actual beliefs of a lot of people in American society.  Still, even in NY, most Asians we come into contact with are Hindu, Catholic, or Muslim - all of which are monotheistic (more or less in the case of Catholicism).  So it’s still not that huge a problem for most people.  And there’s no real issue with doing business with idolators most of the time.

And nobody can obey all the mitzvot because some mitzvot only apply to certain classes of people.  I can’t follow the mitzvot that apply to kohanim, most of us can’t follow the mitzvot that apply to thieves, or divorced men (there’s a mitzva to remarry your divorced wife, provided she hasn’t married anyone else in between), or people who have contracted various forms of tumah. 

The Chofetz Chaim’s “Concise Guide to Mitzvot” lists fewer than 300 mitzvot which are even operative today, because so many are dependent on having a working Temple and having the majority of Jews living in Israel on their ancestral tribal lands, which most of us don’t know any more.

The difference between you and me is not in being “honest about not being able to obey all the mitzvot to the letter”.  The difference is that I am aware (to some extent) of the breadth of the Jewish legal system, and have some clue as to which mitzvot are operative under which circumstances.  You, however, look at a dead-static list and scoff because you think some of the laws are outdated (rather than not operative, or ignored through unawareness, or whatever).

Perhaps many Orthodox Jews are not aware that some of the “outdated” mitzvot have become relevant again.  By the same token, though, many heterodox Jews are not aware that Orthodox Jews do their best to confront their duty to God and His Torah, and don’t feel free to discard mitzvot that seem “outdated.” It’s not “blind submission to outdated crap”, it’s conscious confrontation with difficult ideas.

Do you really believe that? I don’t know where you live, but I live in the United States, in a society filled with people who follow non-monotheistic and polytheistic faiths, including some that involve idols. My town has Hindus and Buddhists in it, not to mention, for heaven’s sake, Wiccans! And I’m not even counting all the materialists who worship objects and money rather than G-d.

The mitzvot say that I should hate these people, that I should burn their towns, and so forth. How can I possibly take those mitzvot literally? I’d be in prison!

The difference between you and me is that at least I’m honest about not being able to obey all the mitzvot to the letter. The rest of you can come up with whatever rationalizations you want, but you’re not fooling anyone. Give me a break already.

However, the heterodox choose to, as you say, read them figuratively, thus claiming that God’s will is immaterial, only Man’s will matters.  So no, the Orthodox and heterodox approaches to “difficult” mitzvot are *not* the same.

For instance: the rules about idolatry stand, but as most of us live among monotheists, rather than worshipers of pantheons which inhabit idols, they aren’t of much practical nature.  The prohibition of benefitting from idol-worship was relevant a few years ago, during the Indian-hair wig controversy.

The rules about capital crimes don’t apply without a full Sanhedrin present, thus have not been operative since about 40 CE.

The personal-status and agricultural mitzvot are in full force, and are observed by the Orthodox.  We don’t wear linsey-woolsey, we don’t sow diverse kinds in Israel, we don’t allow a [known] mamzer to marry a non-mamzer, etc.  Men do not shave with [straight] razors, only with electrics or possibly safety razors.

None of your list of mitzvot are taken “figuratively” by the Orthodox.  But they are followed in the context of the Torah’s full legal system.

Thanks for your comment. I.  I concede you are correct to a great extent on the question of fundamentalism versus the commentaries.  But then why all of resistance to, for instance eliminating the problem of the Agunah, through similar legal fictions as you describe for the defective virgin problem?  Why not similar resolutions to allow women to have equal roles in 20th century Judaism if the Rabbinical interpretaitons of the Torah can change the law??

And I don’t celebrate Hannukah--its current form in the US is obviously retaliaition by gentile merchants for the commercialization of Christmas and elsewhere is the celebration of actions the of 2nd century BCE “haredim” who were cleansing the Temple of “reform,” helenized Jews.

The notion that somehow one’s creed supersedes ones deed is a decidedly non Jewish idea. That fact that the conservative and reform movements have made creed the center of their respective universes speaks volumes about how they interpret (or fail to interpret) their faith.

Judaism has always had non observant practitioners- this is not a new phenomena. Even in the time of the Temple, there were Jews who openly worshiped Baal, other forms of idolatry and those who just didn’t want to be observant for any number of reasons.

The difference between those Jews and the non observant Jews of today is straightforward. Our non observant antecedents did not delude themselves into believing that their non observance gave them the right to redefine the religion for themselves or others. They readily admitted their own religious shortcomings. They had no need to redefine their religion so that they might feel justified in their beliefs or actions, nor did they step all over their more religious brethren.

As a matter of disclosure, I am not an orthodox Jew.

That said, I have no desire to pray from a siddur that differs from the one my grandfather and great grandfather used. I have no desire to be preached to by a rabbi whose denomination supports the idea that belief in God is optional.  I have no desire to have the Torah redefined and reinterpreted.

My grandparents and their parents were not foolish or misinformed. It is they and countless others like them, before them and since them, who keep Judaism relevant today.

If I fail to live up to the highest standard of my faith, then the failing is my own. I will not ask my faith to accommodate my personal ideologies.

I believe that God alone knows what is in my heart and He alone will judge me, not by my creed but rather, by my deeds.

Indeed, all you super-Jews out there who bad-mouth the non-Orthodox, do tell me if you rigorously obey **all** of the following mitzvot, unless of course you want to be open to charges of hypocrisy. And don’t tell me that these mitzvot must be interpreted figuratively, because that’s precisely what the non-Orthodox have been trying to say for all these years.

31. Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes Ex. 20:20
33. To burn a city that has turned to idol worship Deut. 13:17
37. Not to love the idolater Deut. 13:9
38. Not to cease hating the idolater Deut. 13:9
39. Not to save the idolater Deut. 13:9
40. Not to say anything in the idolater’s defense Deut. 13:9
41. Not to refrain from incriminating the idolater Deut. 13:9
45. Not to be afraid of killing the false prophet Deut. 18:22
56. Not to make a covenant with idolaters Deut. 7:2
68. Men must not shave the hair off the sides of their head Lev. 19:27
69. Men must not shave their beards with a razor Lev. 19:27
82. Each male must write a Torah scroll Deut. 31:19
128. To perform yibbum (marry the widow of one’s childless brother) Deut. 25:5
129. To perform halizah (free the widow of one’s childless brother from yibbum) Deut. 25:9
130. The widow must not remarry until the ties with her brother-in-law are removed (by halizah) Deut. 25:5
166. Not to let a mamzer (a child born due to an illegal relationship) marry into the Jewish people Deut. 23:3
234. Not to plant diverse seeds together Lev. 19:19
238. Not to wear shaatnez, a cloth woven of wool and linen Deut. 22:11
491. Break the neck of a calf by the river valley following an unsolved murder Deut. 21:4
504. Purchase a Hebrew slave in accordance with the prescribed laws Ex. 21:2
514. Canaanite slaves must work forever unless injured in one of their limbs Lev. 25:46
528. Press the idolater for payment Deut. 15:3
545. The courts must carry out the death penalty of stoning Deut. 22:24
546. The courts must carry out the death penalty of burning Lev. 20:14
547. The courts must carry out the death penalty of the sword Ex. 21:20
548. The courts must carry out the death penalty of strangulation Lev. 20:10
549. The courts must hang those stoned for blasphemy or idolatry Deut. 21:22
552. The court must not let the sorcerer live Ex. 22:17
553. The court must give lashes to the wrongdoer Ex. 25:2
581. Not to diminish from the Torah any commandments, in whole or in part Deut. 13:1
596. Destroy the seven Canaanite nations Deut. 20:17
597. Not to let any of them remain alive Deut. 20:16
598. Wipe out the descendants of Amalek Deut. 25:19
611. Keep the laws of the captive woman Deut. 21:11
613. Not to retain her for servitude after having sexual relations with her Deut. 21:14

I live in Canada, where I am a Chasidic rabbi and maintain a clinical practice in spiritual direction. Orthodoxy is mainstream here and runs perhaps slightly ahead of Conservative Judaism. There are 5 Orthodox synagogues in Ottawa, where I live, compared to three Conservative. Reform and Recon are present in Canada but hardly normative—Reform has 26 synagogues and Recon has four.

Maimonides has already answered your question, Mr Pressman. Rambam maintains that one’s Judaism is premised on mitzva, not myth. He’s quite clear on that, and holds utterly rational perspectives on, for example, the waters of the Red Sea parting. It’s a common Chabad ploy to use Maimonides and completely misrepresent his scientific outlook as faith-based. Poppycock.

As to your premise about what the Orthodox do or do not believe, I would urge you to actually participate in Orthodox communities and learn something of these perspective. You can then criticise them to your heart’s delight. I’ve been doing it myself for years.

“The whole idea of Reform, and possibly Conservative” [N. Pressman] “is to try and keep us together.” True.  Conservative started out as a traditionalist movement, but since the 1950s, has liberalized itself into a somewhat more Hebrew-using version of Reform, guided by the zeitgeist rather than by tradition and halacha.

Mr. Pressman goes on to talk about requirements to believe in myths.  Ironically, it is Mr. Pressman who is the fundamentalist here, inasmuch as Christian Fundamentalists are characterized by literal readings of the Bible.  Only by reading the passage about the girl who lied about her past to her husband outside of the context of the rest of Torah law, can we find such horror at the awfulness of the Old Testament Religion.  A glance at Rashi reveals that such a stoning requires the testimony of two witnesses, who warned her using specific language, who witnessed the actual intercourse with other men, and that the stoning is at the hand of the witnesses, with the other people simply observing.  In other words, the “law” here is practically a dead letter.  But the heterodox do not, in general, study Torah, they apparently read the Bible, so they do not know their rich heritage, and only reject a strawman.

These heterodox biblical literalists make me despair for the future of American Jewry having anything to do with Torah and Mitzvot.  They don’t learn Torah, so they reject what they imagine to be the Mitzvot, and give their children little true cultural background to substitute for the all-pervasive Christian culture (Sundays in church, Christmas Christmas Christmas from October to January, etc.) Chanukah alone is no substitute for Christmas.  Chanukah in the context of the HIgh Holidays, the agricultural festivals, and the grand sweep of Jewish history, can symbolize our cultural conservatism, our rebellion against those who would subordinate Judaism to the zeitgeist and destroy the Jewish future.

True, the presence of Conservative and Reform gives disillusioned Jews a stopping point before they leave Jewish culture and tribal membership entirely, and as such they have value.  But as an environment for the long-term future of American Judaism?  I doubt it.

Can you be a Jew if you don’t believe in Myth?

We have a common heritage which probably can be traced to the 8th or 9th century BC (or maybe earlier if you believe that Kings David and Solomon were real as opposed to mythical.) After the Diaspora our ancestors kept certain customs and invented others such as mitizah b’peh and all of the Hasidic customs.

Over time, our ancestors,especially those in France and Germany, as opposed to Lithuania and eastern Europe .started to realize the Torah was a set of myths as opposed to the word of a non-existent deity who watches over humanity. The key is this set of myths bound our more recent enlightened ancestors together even though most of them realized they were myths. Even you (the orthodox) don’t believe in the complete truth of the Torah and don’t completely obey its rules .

I enjoy reading parts of the Torah. “The Rape of Dinah” for instance is an excellent allegory of how our people evened the odds and beat a superior foe. The story of Ruth is an example of how we are open to accept converts. The book of Esther is a primary on intermarriage.

When the first scribe reduced Genesis to writing, do you think he had the benefit of the Hubble telescope-did he know the special and general theories of relativity let alone Newtonian mechanics? Did he understand Darwin?.

And while I am open to the possibility that somewhere in he universe something happen which somehow created the first DNA strand and it was brought to earth or that there is some unknowable pre-big bang force which created the big bang-I see no evidence that there is a God like force in the form of a big man in the sky who wrote the Torah and watches over us. Further, I don’t think you really do either and I’ll deal with that question later today or tomorrow.

I’ll re-state your question as follows: “Can the only people of antiquity to have survived antiquity continue to survive as a group once the myth that previously bound it together is exposed as a myth?” and “Is it necessary to pretend that we believe that the myth is real for us to survive?”

You and your orthodox friends either believe in the myths, or in the case of modern orthodox, don’t necessarily believe in them but think the rules of the Torah must be obeyed to preserve our tribe. I and most of my mainstream Jewish friends don’t believe in the myths.

If you were correct that it was necessary to perpetuate the Torah’s myths to preserve us as a group I don’t think I could, for example, pretend that it was necessary to stone a woman who had tricked her husband into believing she was a virgin on the wedding date.

The whole idea of the reform, and possibly the conservative movement, is to try and keep us together in a world which has seen the Torah’s myths unraveled If these movements fail, our tribe may well go out of existence-that’s why (Rabbi Lamm) should praise the reform and conservative movements instead of trying to subvert them.

Lamm isn’t saying a “kaddish” for the other movements, for that would imply empathy and grieving. The man is clearly gloating, and he can barely repress his glee at their troubles. Deeply unattractive. He’s clearly looking forward with great anticipation for the day when the other branches and perspectives of Judaism go extinct; if he could pull a lever to destroy them utterly, ending the diversity that has made Jews in America the staggeringly important force that they have become today.

Is it not enough for the Orthodox to be strong, or must the other movements be weak in order to satisfy the desires of people like Lamm? He is saying to the millions of young Jews born and raised into a Jewish identity from one of the other movements that this big man in the Orthodox movement is rooting for your extinction, for the annihilation of your very identity. Hillel would be rolling in his grave.

It’s time for this chauvanism between Jews to end. We must root for the growth and well-being of all, and celebrate the rich, yes, heterodox, diversity of American Jewry.

Diversity breeds strength and resilience. It was the Conservative movement that was the first to take the bold stand for Zionism back when it counted, back when even the Orthodox were naysayers. (Or has Lamm forgotten?) American Jews have contributed to America far out of proportion to their numbers, shaping the very history of this country for centuries, and the vast majority of these contributions have come from the non-Orthodox. Chew on that nugget when you read that Lamm is praying for the day when only the Orthodox and haredim remain.

Jewish diversity is good for America, good for our image, and, most of all, good for us, so that we never settle into the kind of cloistered, homogeneous groupthink that dooms us in the end.

The image of idealized homogeneity and theological purity espoused by Lamm is deeply ahistorical, and the historical diversity of Jewish philosophy--yes, tempered by tradition-- is part of the reason we have survived the millenia. The fact that so many Jews today are white-skinned and not olive-skinned like our ancestors in the Levant is a dramatic testament to a history of intermarriage and, gasp, patrilineal descent.

What Lamm should be praying for is the blossoming of all of Judaism, from the Orthodox to the rest. That would make Hillel proud. it would demonstrate that Lamm feels secure enough in his Judaism that he isn’t compelled to belittle other Jews (a violation of the mitzvot, by the way).

And it might even have the benefit of making his own movement more attractive to those Jews who might be receptive to a change. Fancy that!