Debating circumcision http://blogs.jta.org/ENTRY_PERMALINK_HERE/debating-circumcision/ With a lawsuit pitting a mother and father against each other over whether to circumcise their son, the Oregonian takes a look at the ritual – and the forces fighting against it. In addition, the paper interviews a Jewish woman about her decision not to circumcise her son: Was [the father’s] argument persuasive? Well, I couldn’t get my mind around it. If I were having a daughter, why wouldn’t she want a visceral, spiritual experience? Then I asked myself, would I really accept this practice without question? It’s not something I do, especially in regards to another person’s body. I had been doing so much to protect my son – eating well, walking, doing prenatal yoga. And no matter what people told me, I could not imagine a way in which circumcision would not hurt him. What about medical arguments? Research suggests no medical reason to do it. Why cut off a piece of a child’s body if I don’t have to? I didn’t believe this is what would make my son Jewish. What will? Celebrating Shabbat, keeping Tikkun Olam (Hebrew for “repairing the world"). Being Jewish is internal, a way of connecting to the rest of the world, to tradition and to history. It is a way of questioning as well. What about the argument that circumcision connects generations of Jewish men to each other and to God? I did think about the Holocaust, how people had not been able to practice circumcision – or risked their lives to do so. That was impressive to me. en-us aeden@jta.org Copyright 2008 2008-07-17T;14:23:51-05:00 Comment by frankalliet@hotmail.com I was circed as an adult with some plastic contraption, which allowed me to avoid surgery for a satisfactory result.  I have 3 adopted sons.  First was circ’d as a baby, 3rd asked to be in 7th grade and was, 2nd asked not to be, but now as a young adult is considering it.  I seems equally cruel to force one, or deny a 13 year old boy a circumcision, if that is what he truly wants.  There are good reasons for a circ outside religion too.  Dad should rely on the boy’s desire to be a Jew and give his son loving advice and let the boy choose.  Mom ought to allow her son to make this reasonable choice about his own body, and give him some privacy as well.  What kind of parents would love their son any less because he did/did not want to be circumcised?  It can’t be an 8th day bris anyways, so can it be an alternative nonsurgical circ like I had?  Can the parents tell their son it is his choice, and they love him no matter what it is?  Come on… I was circed as an adult with some plastic contraption, which allowed me to avoid surgery for a satisfactory result.  I have 3 adopted sons.  First was circ’d as a baby, 3rd asked to be in 7th grade and was, 2nd asked not to be, but now as a young adult is considering it.  I seems equally cruel to force one, or deny a 13 year old boy a circumcision, if that is what he truly wants.  There are good reasons for a circ outside religion too.  Dad should rely on the boy’s desire to be a Jew and give his son loving advice and let the boy choose.  Mom ought to allow her son to make this reasonable choice about his own body, and give him some privacy as well.  What kind of parents would love their son any less because he did/did not want to be circumcised?  It can’t be an 8th day bris anyways, so can it be an alternative nonsurgical circ like I had?  Can the parents tell their son it is his choice, and they love him no matter what it is?  Come on…

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by camp-rock@yahoogroups.com JewsAgainstCircumcision.org Also, the Mothering.com: The Case Against Circumcision that has several members who are Jewish and left their sons intact. It’s *not* required (circumcision))! You’re Jewish in your HEART! JewsAgainstCircumcision.org Also, the Mothering.com: The Case Against Circumcision that has several members who are Jewish and left their sons intact. It’s *not* required (circumcision))! You’re Jewish in your HEART!

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by DavidX@spull.me.uk Let’s call circumcision what it really is: genital mutilation. Except for urgent medical reasons, it should be illegal until the owner of the foreskin is legally adult. It should never be done for for religious reasons on children. Babies are not born Jews (or any other religion for that matter) as they can have no concept of belief in a god. They may be born to parents who have religious beliefs, but this does not necessarily mean that they will wish to follow the same religion. I am not anti-religion, but I strongly believe that no person should have the right to force their own religious practices on any other person. ellen said:  “his penis is a font of attention and handling by his mother”.  Only if the mother is a paedophile.  Phimosis is most commonly caused by attempts to retract the foreskin before it is ready; this may not occur until puberty. The first person to retract a boy’s foreskin should be the boy himself. Let’s call circumcision what it really is: genital mutilation. Except for urgent medical reasons, it should be illegal until the owner of the foreskin is legally adult.

It should never be done for for religious reasons on children. Babies are not born Jews (or any other religion for that matter) as they can have no concept of belief in a god. They may be born to parents who have religious beliefs, but this does not necessarily mean that they will wish to follow the same religion.

I am not anti-religion, but I strongly believe that no person should have the right to force their own religious practices on any other person.

ellen said:  “his penis is a font of attention and handling by his mother”.  Only if the mother is a paedophile.  Phimosis is most commonly caused by attempts to retract the foreskin before it is ready; this may not occur until puberty. The first person to retract a boy’s foreskin should be the boy himself.

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by oh-oh@zeronet.com Covenant? Creation came with the creator & all violations of creation come from his adversary. Why is it that people think they can adjust any & every part of creation & not actually be transgressors? There is no creation based NORM in this world. Do you think that it’s possible to have an endless number of different violations of creation built into a norm, any norm, and still be right. If so normal is how you define right? What happens to creation if the world is full of socio-NORM-O-paths? Maybe the predictions of extinction unavoidably correct after all? Covenant?

Creation came with the creator & all violations of creation come from his adversary. Why is it that people think they can adjust any & every part of creation & not actually be transgressors?

There is no creation based NORM in this world. Do you think that it’s
possible to have an endless number of different violations of creation built into a norm, any norm, and still be right. If so normal is how you define right?

What happens to creation if the world is full of socio-NORM-O-paths?
Maybe the predictions of extinction unavoidably correct after all?

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by dolemite7@yahoo.com I’m an anti-circumcision advocate and am not jewish. Here are a few questions.  Can somebody tell me why God creates the foreskin in the first place and then places a rule in a holy book that requires you to cut off the foreskin? If God didn’t like the foreskin, why did he create it? Couldn’t he just not create it in the womb and spare us the work? Is it really a part of Jewish identity if Muslims and tribes in Africa also ritually circumcise their sons? Babies feel pain, but is it really worth the risk of amputation, death, the loss of the entire penis, the loss of sexual receptors and nerves to inflict unnecessary pain? I am not anti-jewish and not filled with hate for you religion. These are the concerns and the strains of logic that we who question this procedure feel that need to be addressed. I’m an anti-circumcision advocate and am not jewish. Here are a few questions. 
Can somebody tell me why God creates the foreskin in the first place and then places a rule in a holy book that requires you to cut off the foreskin?
If God didn’t like the foreskin, why did he create it? Couldn’t he just not create it in the womb and spare us the work?
Is it really a part of Jewish identity if Muslims and tribes in Africa also ritually circumcise their sons?
Babies feel pain, but is it really worth the risk of amputation, death, the loss of the entire penis, the loss of sexual receptors and nerves to inflict unnecessary pain? I am not anti-jewish and not filled with hate for you religion. These are the concerns and the strains of logic that we who question this procedure feel that need to be addressed.

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by pwlz8cizt3onlee@mx0.wwwnew.eu The pain of circumcision is unlike anything else. The only thing close to it would be being skinned alive, which actually is part of circumcision. The cries of circumcised babies are unlike any normal cries, they are shrieks of terror. There is NO medical organization in the world that recommends it, none. There are no benefits from it. If it had a benefit of protecting from STD’s(including AIDS) we would have seen it in the US. But we have seen the reverse. It is not a “requirement” to be a Jew, that comes from being the child of a Jewish mother. And the bottom line is that it is a violation of the boy’s Human Rights to a whole body if he chooses.(his choice) This mother shows that she is respecting his rights. If, when he is old enough, HE decides to have it done, he will have that right. What about those who had their right to a whole body ripped away from them at birth? The pain of circumcision is unlike anything else. The only thing close to it would be being skinned alive, which actually is part of circumcision. The cries of circumcised babies are unlike any normal cries, they are shrieks of terror. There is NO medical organization in the world that recommends it, none. There are no benefits from it. If it had a benefit of protecting from STD’s(including AIDS) we would have seen it in the US. But we have seen the reverse. It is not a “requirement” to be a Jew, that comes from being the child of a Jewish mother.
And the bottom line is that it is a violation of the boy’s Human Rights to a whole body if he chooses.(his choice)
This mother shows that she is respecting his rights. If, when he is old enough, HE decides to have it done, he will have that right. What about those who had their right to a whole body ripped away from them at birth?

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by m.glass@optusnet.com.au As I see it, the case is whether a 13 year old should be circumcised when the father says yes and the mother says no. In a previous case, a judge decided that a 9 year old boy should decide for himself when he reaches adulthood. In this case, the Oregon Supreme Court has decided that the boy should be consulted. This seems to be a perfectly reasonable request in the circumstances. A reasonable person would accept this. However, the father has appealed to the United States Supreme Court. This sounds quite suspicious to me. If the father knew that the boy wanted to be circumcised, what is the problem with asking him? The fact that the father has appealed this decision suggests that the father does not agree that his son has a right to be consulted about the circumcision or that the father knows his son does not want to be circumcised. In either case there is a compelling need for the youth to be consulted. The father has presented this case as an attack on Jewish circumcision and has successfully lobbied several Jewish organizations to support him. However, we are not dealing with a week-old child, but a youth who was not born Jewish and who turned 13 four months ago. The Oregon Supreme Court said that the youth should be consulted about the circumcision. This is the most reasonable decision in this unusual case. If the father does not agree that a 13 year old boy should be consulted about this circumcision, then there is something seriously wrong, and it is good that the courts are involved. Forcing a 13 year old youth to be circumcised without consulting him is more in accord with the actions of the Taliban than that of a civilized nation. As I see it, the case is whether a 13 year old should be circumcised when the father says yes and the mother says no. In a previous case, a judge decided that a 9 year old boy should decide for himself when he reaches adulthood. In this case, the Oregon Supreme Court has decided that the boy should be consulted.

This seems to be a perfectly reasonable request in the circumstances. A reasonable person would accept this. However, the father has appealed to the United States Supreme Court.

This sounds quite suspicious to me. If the father knew that the boy wanted to be circumcised, what is the problem with asking him? The fact that the father has appealed this decision suggests that the father does not agree that his son has a right to be consulted about the circumcision or that the father knows his son does not want to be circumcised. In either case there is a compelling need for the youth to be consulted.

The father has presented this case as an attack on Jewish circumcision and has successfully lobbied several Jewish organizations to support him. However, we are not dealing with a week-old child, but a youth who was not born Jewish and who turned 13 four months ago.

The Oregon Supreme Court said that the youth should be consulted about the circumcision. This is the most reasonable decision in this unusual case. If the father does not agree that a 13 year old boy should be consulted about this circumcision, then there is something seriously wrong, and it is good that the courts are involved. Forcing a 13 year old youth to be circumcised without consulting him is more in accord with the actions of the Taliban than that of a civilized nation.

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by moonyeen@mweb.co.za I am a traditional Jewess, not particularly orthodox or progressive. However, I have three sons each one has been circumcised, this is most definately one of the symbols of our faith and I would never have dreamed of not doing so. It certainly is worth the few minutes of crying and discomfort, this links my sons to generations of Jewish men. We leave in an era when people are doing a lot worse to their bodies, piercing, tatoeing and the likes. Why destroy something that has worked for thousands of years. I am a traditional Jewess, not particularly orthodox or progressive.
However, I have three sons each one has been circumcised, this is most definately one of the symbols of our faith and I would never have dreamed of not doing so. It certainly is worth the few minutes of crying and discomfort, this links my sons to generations of Jewish men.
We leave in an era when people are doing a lot worse to their bodies, piercing, tatoeing and the likes.
Why destroy something that has worked for thousands of years.

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by pjlogan@earthlink.net Some facts are missing or at least not weighed with proper perspective.  Circumcision has medical benefits.  For example, it is associated with a significantly lower risk of tranmitting various diseases.  It doesn’t hurt much, especially compared with all the slights and insults a newborn/infant faces.  A baby cries for a few moments how many times a day?  I’ve been circumcised.  I’ve held down my best friend’s son (now 14).  I know.  I’m not Orthodox.  I recognize there is a range of what creates a Jewish identity.  But this is a covenant from God. Some facts are missing or at least not weighed with proper perspective.  Circumcision has medical benefits.  For example, it is associated with a significantly lower risk of tranmitting various diseases.  It doesn’t hurt much, especially compared with all the slights and insults a newborn/infant faces.  A baby cries for a few moments how many times a day? 
I’ve been circumcised.  I’ve held down my best friend’s son (now 14).  I know. 
I’m not Orthodox.  I recognize there is a range of what creates a Jewish identity.  But this is a covenant from God.

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by oh-oh@zeronet.com DID LIKE THAT ONE HUH ? DID LIKE THAT ONE HUH ?

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by oh-oh@zeronet.com If I were having a daughter, why wouldn’t she want a visceral, spiritual experience? DO YOU MEAN THIS ? If I were having a daughter, why wouldn’t she want a primitive, animal experience? visceral (adj) instinctual, intuitive, instinctive, primitive, animal, primeval, gut antonym: reasoned Microsoft® Encarta® 2007. © 1993-2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. If I were having a daughter, why wouldn’t she want a visceral, spiritual experience?
DO YOU MEAN THIS ?
If I were having a daughter, why wouldn’t she want a primitive, animal experience?

visceral (adj)
instinctual, intuitive, instinctive, primitive, animal, primeval, gut
antonym: reasoned
Microsoft® Encarta® 2007. © 1993-2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by epopper@fibertel.com.ar There are many reasons why a circumcision is advisable . If the child is born a Jew, being different from all other Jews will bring him endless conflict with his identity. Especially if his father is circumcised and he is not. Medical : 1) lessens the possibility of acquiring or transmiting venereal diseases. 2) it saves the child from psychological problems if, because of phymosis , his penis is a font of attention and handling by his mother. There are many reasons why a circumcision is advisable . If the child is born a Jew, being different from all other Jews will bring him endless conflict with his identity. Especially if his father is circumcised and he is not.
Medical : 1) lessens the possibility of acquiring or transmiting venereal diseases. 2) it saves the child from psychological problems if, because of phymosis , his penis is a font of attention and handling by his mother.

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by vcharro@yahoo.com Three reasons the mother’s thinking is wrong-headed:  1. It really doesn’t matter what she thinks or feels, or what her son learns and practices regarding Judaism.  Her son is not Jewish, and he will not be accepted as a Jew by those who understand the rules of Judaism.  2. With regard to the pain her son might have felt, babies feel a lot of pain a good deal of the time--a really bad case of diaper rash can cause excruciating pain for several days (I’ve seen this myself).  On the other hand, once the pain of circumcision is over, it’s over.  Furthermore, babies heal very quickly--much faster than adults.  3.  The newest findings regarding the foreskin have shown that it has a number of receptors on the inner “side” that bind to a number of pathogens--hence the finding in Africa that uncircumcised men were significantly more likely to be infected with HIV than circumcised men with the same sexual behaviors who were exposed to HIV with the same frequency. I think she has done her son--and her family--a great disservice. Three reasons the mother’s thinking is wrong-headed:  1. It really doesn’t matter what she thinks or feels, or what her son learns and practices regarding Judaism.  Her son is not Jewish, and he will not be accepted as a Jew by those who understand the rules of Judaism.  2. With regard to the pain her son might have felt, babies feel a lot of pain a good deal of the time--a really bad case of diaper rash can cause excruciating pain for several days (I’ve seen this myself).  On the other hand, once the pain of circumcision is over, it’s over.  Furthermore, babies heal very quickly--much faster than adults.  3.  The newest findings regarding the foreskin have shown that it has a number of receptors on the inner “side” that bind to a number of pathogens--hence the finding in Africa that uncircumcised men were significantly more likely to be infected with HIV than circumcised men with the same sexual behaviors who were exposed to HIV with the same frequency.

I think she has done her son--and her family--a great disservice.

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by jerry@weissman.com O.K.  Now the first step away from Judaism has been taken.  What right do these secularly minded parents have in forbidding their child to be Jewish?  How can this child, when an adult, be married to a proper Jewish woman?  For the sake of their own selfish feel good attitudes they are blocking their own son from Israel. O.K.  Now the first step away from Judaism has been taken.  What right do these secularly minded parents have in forbidding their child to be Jewish?  How can this child, when an adult, be married to a proper Jewish woman?  For the sake of their own selfish feel good attitudes they are blocking their own son from Israel.

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00 Comment by chaya_valier@yahoo.com This story is unusual in that the boy is now 12 years old and therefore the situation is physically different, but nevertheless, if he wants to convert to Judaism, he must be circumcised.  He would perhaps need different medical help than the normal Jewish 8-day old. The story quotes statistics of “secular” circumcision rates in hospitals, which are usually performed during the newborn’s stay in the hospital. However, Jews do it from the eighth day, or later if the newborn is not healthy enough for it. If you read the Lamaze guide to childbirth (Birth with Confidence), it recommends doing what those of the Jewish faith do, i.e. waiting until the 8th day, because that’s when Vitamin K levels are at their highest. This story is unusual in that the boy is now 12 years old and therefore the situation is physically different, but nevertheless, if he wants to convert to Judaism, he must be circumcised.  He would perhaps need different medical help than the normal Jewish 8-day old.

The story quotes statistics of “secular” circumcision rates in hospitals, which are usually performed during the newborn’s stay in the hospital. However, Jews do it from the eighth day, or later if the newborn is not healthy enough for it. If you read the Lamaze guide to childbirth (Birth with Confidence), it recommends doing what those of the Jewish faith do, i.e. waiting until the 8th day, because that’s when Vitamin K levels are at their highest.

]]> 2009-11-19T;22:58:01-05:00